MYSTERY WIRE — Long before the current wave of headlines about UFO incidents, American newspapers considered the mystery to be a serious subject.
One of the most spectacular cases of all time occurred over a three-day period in 1950. Thousands of witnesses saw hundreds of unknown objects in the sky.
For most, just hearing someone say Roswell, New Mexico conjures up the crash of something outside of town in July 1947. The Roswell incident is now widely considered the granddaddy of all UFO cases.
But three years later, in another part of the same state, there was a much bigger event. An armada of unknown aircraft put on a spectacular display that lasted nearly three days.
It happened in the rural town of Farmington, New Mexico. According to first-hand witness reports, newspaper headlines and stories, and government documents the town was buzzed by various UFOs over three days.
The reports describe people seeing classic flying saucers, some of which flew in distinct formations while others performed impossible maneuvers. “I love this headline, ‘Spaceships Cause Sensation’,” New Mexico investigator David Marler told Mystery Wire. These were front page news stories at that time. And you know, when we talk about the sightings to your point, we have to underscore the fact that this was two and a half to three days of broad daylight sightings of anywhere from single to dozens to quite literally hundreds of reports.
David Marler is one of the most meticulous UFO researchers anywhere. During the interview with Mystery Wire, Marler explained what he called a “quick rundown” of the events from March, 1950:
“In Tucumcari, New Mexico, which is on the opposite end of the state on the far east end, we have a flyover of a solitary object that was documented in the Tucumcari Daily Times. It was described as a saucer and they could tell it was a saucer because of the way it tipped and moved. They could appreciate it from different vantage points, which is interesting because that echoes other reports that we heard from Farmington. That was at 9:15 on … Friday, March 17.
David Marler, UFO Researcher and Author
“And then we have 10:15 a.m. in Farmington, five to nine saucers observed directly over Main Street, departed to the northeast and were reported 45 minutes later to the west of town by other witnesses.
“10:30, “Hundreds” that’s a quote from the newspaper of objects seen west of town from the Farmington Daily Times.
“10:30, a red object was observed in two revolving disks seen having a tussle in the sky.”
“Then we have at 10:30, another portion of the sky, revolving discs, swooping and swerving and turning like a top were reported by witnesses.
“And then at 10:35 three objects stage a day dogfight in the sky. Again, a direct quote from the newspaper, “where these things seem to be interacting with one another.”
“At 11 o’clock we had a sighting of a solitary saucer shaped object that circled town, came from the southwest and departed to the northeast with a sudden burst of speed.
“11 o’clock, two metallic UFO seen, smaller UFO moving very fast south to north and a larger one was seen stationary. So these weren’t objects blowing in the wind, one was stationary, while the other one was moving.
“11:15 to 11:30 swarm of hundreds of objects observed. Red object is seen again and reported by witnesses. These departed to the northeast with a sudden burst of speed.
“Two o’clock, now we’re into the afternoon, (a) silvery object shaped like a rectangle with rounded ends was seen moving in a westerly direction, at three o’clock fleet of hundreds, again, direct quote from the newspaper, flying information from the northeast heading to the southwest.
“At that same time, I was able to find in my research, based on Albuquerque newspapers, there was a sighting also corroborated in Project Grudge files. Three tech sergeants and an Air Force Captain standing on the tarmac at Kirtland Air Force Base at three o’clock saw three objects moving off to the northeast over the Sandia Mountains. It was significant enough that they officially reported it to Project Grudge.
“And then later in the afternoon, there’s no time actually listed in the newspaper over Las Vegas, New Mexico, a flyover of multiple unidentified aerial objects was seen.
“And then in Tucumcari, again, on the east end of the state, we have a flyover of multiple objects with a red leader being observed as well. And that’s one of the consistent themes is this red object that was different from the others. The other ones were described as silver or gray moving into formation, not a V formation, I might add. All the witnesses were extremely adamant because many were former World War II military veterans they said they were moving in a formation but not an echelon formation like we would do with jet aircraft.”
Marler calls this all “a significant series of sightings … we have hundreds if not thousands of witnesses. Not just in Farmington, not just an Aztec, not just in New Mexico, but in San Antonio, Dallas, and even down into Mexico City.”
Just in the last month, Marler uncovered a new witness account about the UFO sightings in Farmington. He said he was reviewing the October 1950 NICAP (National Investigations Committee On Aerial Phenomena) UFO files and stumbled across a mis-filed UFO report related to Farmington.
This report, for the first time, included a witness sketch from the Farmington event.
Below, you can watch the entire interview between George Knapp and David Marler and read the transcript.
George Knapp
Mystery Wire Interview
David, I’m amazed that we haven’t crossed paths before I’ve been looking forward to speaking to you. I want to comment before we start, though, on how organized and your your materials are in back of you versus this, you know, it’s a comment about how different we are. But we are interested in the same topics and I remember when I first got started reading about UFOs, reading about this particular incident, the Farmington Armada, and wondering why it wasn’t a bigger deal. You’ve been digging into it. A much under investigated case. Why do you suppose it’s been overlooked for so long?
David Marler
Well, I think George, one of the things we have to keep in mind is the time period in question. This was just three years after Kenneth Arnold’s famous sighting, three years after Roswell. And in 1950, here in the United States, we really didn’t have an organized body investigating UFOs. When you look at APRO (Aerial Phenomena Research Organization), for example, they weren’t formed until ’52, two years after the event. Certainly NICAP (National Investigations Committee On Aerial Phenomena) was formed later in 1957. And even the smaller organization which was extremely active in the ’50s, CSI New York, they weren’t formed until 1954. So I think some of those organizations tried to maybe backtrack and look at this case. But without tools such as the internet that we have, obviously today and the FOIA requests and things of that nature, it just basically was left virtually uninvestigated, under appreciated. Really the only person to truly investigate this case, and I always love to give him credit where credit’s due is Dr. James McDonald. In 1968, circa 1968, he started investigating a lot of these historic cases. And Farmington was one of those and in fact, I even went to the University of Arizona as part of my research to collect his notes. And in fact, even had audio recordings from that time period, George.
George Knapp
Set the stage New Mexico, we know about what was going on in Roswell, you know, the 509th, things of that sort. But there’s a lot of interesting activity in New Mexico, human activity that some visitor might be interested in.
David Marler
Absolutely. Again, going back to March 1950, what was one of the most prominent projects going on specifically in New Mexico, the development of the hydrogen bomb, much of that work being done at Los Alamos National Laboratories, which is just about 120 miles by air from Farmington. So we have to, to your point, provide that historical context for what was going on at the time, in addition to any number of military development work being done at say White Sands in the southern portion of the state. And for those that aren’t familiar with Farmington, I think it’s important to kind of give you the location. This is right up near the Four Corners region in the far northwest corner of the state of New Mexico, extremely rural, and primarily, the business then as well as now is primarily petroleum, natural gas, oil, that type of thing. So it’s primarily that business that has helped fuel that community for many, many decades. But I don’t think anybody knew of Farmington, New Mexico prior to this event. Certainly, it’s splashed across the headlines not only locally and regionally but nationally. I have many of the original newspaper articles. In fact, this is the one from the Farmington Daily Times which I have here. And one of my favorite ones which I have an original copy of is the Las Vegas New Mexico, I need to be very careful in saying that since I’m talking to you George in Nevada, is I love this headline, Spaceships cause sensation. These were front page news stories at that time. And you know, when we talk about the sightings to your point, we have to underscore the fact that this was two and a half to three days of broad daylight sightings of anywhere from single to dozens to quite literally hundreds of reports and here’s another article, Covey of 100 saucers sail over Farmington. So to your point, when you’re looking for a good UFO case, what’s the measure as far as that goes? One object, a dozen objects, or hundreds of objects? And what’s interesting about this is the way the Air Force looked at this case. In my research, I went to Air Force, Project Bluebook files. Farmington, despite three days of broad daylight sightings of hundreds of desks, is not even listed in their monthly tally for the month of March 1950. However, if you’re a tenacious researcher and you dig further, I found redacted Air Force Office of Special Investigation investigation forums specific to the Farmington incident. And in 2014, I filed a FOIA request to try to get the unredacted documents and much to my surprise, I was able to secure those which also yielded additional witness names which were redacted in the formerly public documents that were out there.
George Knapp
So Air Force did not want these records to be easily found?
David Marler
Not easily found no. And quite often, you know, especially in 1950. And again, to provide some context, Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, who is of course, part of Project Bluebook in the 1950s. In his book, Report on Unidentified Flying Objects, still, to me one of the landmark books on the subject, he referred to this time period circa 1950, as the dark ages of UFO research. At that time, we have to understand it was under the Project Grudge umbrella where there was a huge anti UFO bias within the Air Force prior to, you know, Project Bluebook and after Project Sign, which was much more liberal in their approach towards the subject. So, it was an interesting time period in that respect, which also to your earlier question, George might yield to the fact that not a lot of information was out there because of that strong anti UFO bias at the time.
George Knapp
So tell the story how this unfolded, the sightings?
David Marler
Absolutely. I actually have a timeline in front of me. Normally I can relay this from memory, but this is so convoluted and so complex. If you will afford me the opportunity. I’ll give you a quick rundown. And this is by the way, not just the Farmington incident. I gave a series of lectures across the country on this and I call it Farmington, New Mexico and Beyond. Because what was typified in Farmington over these three days was actually part of a larger wave of UFO sightings well documented, stretching from Colorado, down into Mexico, even down into South America. I have original Latin American newspapers describing saucer sightings during this three day period. So I think that’s very important. But just real quick, I’m gonna give you a brief run through. In Tucumcari, New Mexico, which is on the opposite end of the state on the far east end, we have a flyover of a solitary object that was documented in the Tucumcari Daily Times. It was described as a saucer and they could tell it was a saucer because of the way it tipped and moved. They could appreciate it from different vantage points, which is interesting because that echoes other reports that we heard from Farmington. That was at 9:15 … Friday, March 17. And then we have 10:15 a.m. in Farmington, five to nine saucers observed directly over Main Street, departed to the northeast and were reported 45 minutes later to the west of town by other witnesses. 10:30, “Hundreds” that’s a quote from the newspaper of objects seen west of town from the Farmington Daily Times. 10:30, a red object was observed in two revolving disks seen having a tussle in the sky. We’re going to come back to that red object George because that is an extremely important aspect of this narrative. Then we have at 10:30, another portion of the sky, revolving discs, swooping and swerving and turning like a top were reported by witnesses. And then at 10:35 three objects stage day dog fight in the sky. Again, a direct quote from the newspaper, where these things seem to be interacting with one another. at 11 o’clock we had a sighting of a solitary saucer shaped object that circled town, came from the southwest and departed to the northeast with a sudden burst of speed. 11 o’clock two metallic UFO seen, smaller UFO moving very fast south to north and a larger one was seen stationary. So these weren’t objects blowing in the wind, one was stationary, while the other one was moving. 11:15 to 11:30 swarm of hundreds of objects observed. Red object is seen again and reported by witnesses. These departed to the northeast with a sudden burst of speed. Two o’clock, now we’re into the afternoon, silvery object shaped like a rectangle with rounded ends was seen moving in a westerly direction, at three o’clock fleet of hundreds, again, direct quote from the newspaper, flying information from the northeast heading to the southwest. At that same time, I was able to find in my research, based on Albuquerque newspapers, there was a sighting also corroborated in Project Grudge files. Three tech sergeants and an Air Force Captain standing on the tarmac at Kirtland Air Force Base at three o’clock saw three objects moving off to the northeast over the Sandia Mountains. It was significant enough that they officially reported it to Project Grudge. And then later in the afternoon, there’s no time actually listed in the newspaper over Las Vegas, New Mexico, a flyover of multiple unidentified aerial objects was seen. And then in Tucumcari, again, on the east end of the state, we have a flyover of multiple objects with a red leader being observed as well. And that’s one of the consistent themes is this red object that was different from the others. The other ones were described as silver or gray moving into formation, not a V formation, I might add. All the witnesses were extremely adamant because many were former world war two military veterans they said they were moving in a formation but not an echelon formation like we would do with jet aircraft and so i think that was an interesting distinction that they point out but these objects would all move together and this red object would often be seen as the leader of the object. In my investigation I was able to track down two living witnesses to this incident back in 2014 and 2015. One is mentioned in the original Farmington daily newspaper right here, is named Mr Marlo Webb, I am happy to say he’s now in his mid 90s, still very healthy, mind sharp is a tack. He is a World War II veteran he was actually the mayor of Farmington in the 70s. he was a bank president and a private pilot for decades so this man has a lot of great background as far as being an observer looking at something in the air. He was working at the Perry Smoke Chevrolet garage on Main Street the first day on the 16th, March 16, and he was interviewed by Air Force office of special investigators about two or three weeks after the event but he was working in the parts department as he told me and he noticed as he’s looking out the window all these people looking up and pointing. Well curiosity got the best of him and he decided to go out and see what they’re looking at and he goes I went out and he said I looked up and he went. I saw a formation of something. He’s not a UFO believer, he’s not anti UFO. He simply says i saw a group of objects, they did not appear to be planes, I can’t say there were flying saucers but they were objects of some unknown description that were moving together and he lost sight of them as they moved behind the cluster of trees. That’s actually in a historic photo I have of the garage that’s no longer there, and he still attests to that after all these years. And then another witness I tracked down lived 16 miles to the northeast in Aztec New Mexico. He was actually a third grader attending grade school elementary school in Aztec and he relays that over that two to three day period during recess they would look up and see these formations of objects which he described george as looking like double six dominoes lined up across the sky it almost look like a quilt pattern of these white dots that would be flying overhead in broad daylight. And so just a significant series of sightings to your point we have hundreds if not thousands of witnesses. Not just in Farmington, not just an Aztec, not just in New Mexico, but in San Antonio, Dallas, and even down into Mexico City. These were well documented at the time and newspapers.
George Knapp
Anyone take photos or film?
David Marler
There’s a purported photo that has circulated for many years and I’m glad you bring this up because I always like to provide some clarity to this aspect of the story. In fact, I have off camera here an original copy from 1950. It shows a V formation of circular objects and it appears it was a photograph taken from someone on the ground looking straight up because you see this V formation of objects and clouds behind. Now, over the years some researchers have tied it to Farmington New Mexico. In my research though I’ve been able to obtain an original news copy from the London Times which indicated that because I have the original news teletype also glued to the back that it was originally published in a small publication that only existed for three years called the Teenage Times out of Dublin Ireland and there’s many different attributions to this photograph as far as where it was taken, when it was taken. However, the first media coverage ironically enough occurred in March 1950, the same month in year as the Farmington incident, but all my research points to the fact that was a European photo. And to provide some additional clarity, all weather accounts and UFO references from later in the mid 50s where there were some vague allusions to this case they described that the skies over Farmington were clear with a slight scattering of cirrus clouds. In the famous photograph that has often been falsely attributed to Farmington you see cumulus clouds in the background so obviously it doesn’t fit the location and the time.
George Knapp
What was the buzz in town? Did people think that’s an alien invasion or did they just say oh that’s really kind of interesting and then go about their business or what?
David Marler
You know, to be honest, when you read the original newspaper accounts the i have to say this because quite often the skeptics will attack people that they’ve never met or that they don’t know and say well these are a bunch of white UFO believers. When you read the eyewitness testimony George, these people are extremely grounded. They’re simply saying they saw something they couldn’t readily identify. They weren’t saying it was an invasion from outer space. They were very pragmatic in their reporting, simply trying to describe what they saw without trying to attribute some meaning behind it. I do believe many people thought that these were not made in the USA, just based on the radical flight characteristics that they were seeing these objects exhibiting. You know, many of whom, as I mentioned, where World War II veterans from the Army and from the Navy. And so, you know, many of them were used to seeing aircraft, whether it was fighters or bombers. And these objects, especially the red leader, didn’t conform to any traditional aerodynamic shape that they were familiar with at the time.
George Knapp
I mean, it sounds like as you describe it, the most spectacular UFO sighting, ever, over one place, and there’s nothing else that compares to it is there?
David Marler
I don’t really think so, you know, in, in the modern era, and it’s funny, you bring that up, I was thinking about this right before we started the interview. Really, the only, I think corollary we have in the modern age would be the Phoenix lights incident, as far as not only the sighting itself, the number of witnesses, but how the media kind of, you know, had their attention focused on it. But what’s interesting about this, and you know, George, I always like to point this out. Many people on social media will sometimes make little snide comments. I know that’s a shock. Well, why do you investigate these old cases? It happened back in 1950. One of the reasons I like to point out investigating these old cases are extremely interesting is, George, let’s say that a similar incident like this occurred last week, can you and I sit here with certainty and say that it’s not something military that they’re testing, we can look back through the lens of history to these cases from the 60s and the 50s. With a fair degree of certainty what, quote unquote, state of the art technology was, wouldn’t you agree with that? And so, when we see something like this of this scale, and we know what they were testing at the time, because most of this has now been declassified from that era, we can look at this and say, This is highly anomalous. We can’t say it’s extraterrestrial. I’m not going to go that far. But it’s highly anomalous. And I might add, the official Air Force explanation, which was really put forth by Donald Menzel with Harvard who is of course, a huge debunker at the time. He attributed this to a Skyhook Navy balloon that was launched at White Sands, that ascended up into a high altitude eventually drifted over Farmington, and it ruptured due to pressure and temperature, etc. And what people saw, and by the way, in his explanation, he only references Friday, March 17. And there’s a reason I’m going to come to that. He described what people saw that they thought were saucers were simple bits of plastic from the ruptured Skyhook balloon. Well, I have a number of issues with that as any logical, semi-educated person, I think would. He doesn’t touch on the fact that this was cited over three days. He only alludes to March 17. And George the reason he alluded to March 17, is because it helped fit a narrative at the time that the Air Force was really putting forth, namely, March 17. Gee, St. Patrick’s Day. People were celebrating, celebrating St. Patrick’s Day, they got inebriated, they went out and they saw flying saucers, so it was a great explanation to just dismiss this entire affair. Dr. James McDonald in his investigative notes which I have copies from the University of Arizona, tracked down a gentleman he only gives the last name in his handwritten notes. He tracked down a gentleman by the name of Dombroski, with the Office of Naval Research. This again was in the late ’60s, Dombroski went back and looked at all Skyhook naval balloon launches. They didn’t have any within two to three weeks of the Farmington incident and I believe the last one was launched in Minnesota and terminated somewhere over Michigan. So McDonald completely thoroughly debunked that explanation in my opinion.
George Knapp
You know, you look at the 69 years of UFO history since Farmington and UFOs are generally elusive, evasive, they camouflage themselves, they hide. They make it hard to document. This is a daytime, three days of daytime sightings, seen by hundreds or thousands of witnesses. It sounds like a display like they wanted to be seen. I’m sure you’ve thought about it, what were they doing? Was it making a statement and why Farmington?
David Marler
Exactly. No, I wrestled with that question, George, because I have no doubt this incident occurred. When you have this much eyewitness testimony. And by the way contemporaneous documentation, we’re not looking back on something that someone just simply made a reference to, as we often have in UFO lore, people just making up stories saying 50 years ago, I saw this. We have contemporaneous reports from Project Bluebook from all the newspapers across the country documenting this at the time. And I do wrestle with that. Why Farmington and why is this so different from many of the other UFO reports we have? Now I do want to mention that about five years ago, I went to Maxwell Air Force Base with my friend Scott and Suzanne Ramsey who investigated the Aztec, New Mexico crash that occurred ironically, almost two years ago to the day of this incident. And I was trying to find radar data. And I was able to find not radar data, but I did confirm that there was a top secret radar installation in El Vado, New Mexico. And the information from Maxwell Air Force Base showed that the radar coverage if you will, did cover Farmington. So it’s quite possible that these were picked up on radar. Unfortunately, I was unable to track down any of those radar records from that time period. But I just want to mention that it probably goes beyond just eyewitness sightings. If this many objects were seen, it’s quite possible they could have been picked up on crude radar at that time.
George Knapp
Can I get your thumbnail explanation or take on Aztec, the alleged crash at Aztec?
David Marler
Yes, I’ll be honest with you since Frank Scully’s book came out in 1950. I think for the most part, it had been widely, really discredited, you know, calling into question, you know, DaBower and Silas Newton, you know, two of the big proponents that launched that story, I have to say, and I’m extremely skeptical when it comes to UFO research, especially crash retrieval stories, spending time with Scott and Suzanne, getting to know them and talking about not only what’s in their book, but things that they’re getting ready to add to an upcoming edition, new information. I’m 50/50. Whereas I was ready to just discount the entire thing. They bring up some inaccuracy, some inconsistencies that lend to the possibility that this may have actually occurred, in addition to other eyewitnesses and families they’ve tracked down that have had some really interesting information to bring forth on that case. So I don’t think we should arbitrarily believe it. I don’t think we should arbitrarily discount it. So I’m, I’m kind of being a good researcher, and just, you know, writing that fine line, if you will, between belief and disbelief. But I’m interested to see the additional information that they’re going to have forthcoming.
George Knapp
But at least the door was slammed on that case by UFOlogy in general. Now, it’s kind of open a little bit.
David Marler
Absolutely. And you know, it’s interesting, too, because there’s so many crash stories, as you know, George, we’ve got Roswell, we have Aztec, we have Cape Girardeau, Missouri, and any number, Kingman Arizona, you know, and I’ve always had an issue at trying to be a logical researcher, assuming for the sake of argument, if we’re dealing with a highly advanced technology, why do they seem to drop out of the air so readily? I have a hard time wrestling with that. And if these things just for the sake of argument going with the extra terrestrial hypothesis, if they have the technology to travel vast distances from another star system, they have difficulty operating within our own atmosphere when we conquered that, you know, in the early years of aviation, I just have a hard time. And I know people have said, well, there were radar systems that, you know, intended to wreak havoc with their flight systems. I have a hard time, you know, accepting that. So the general idea of crashed discs, wrestling that or trying to comport that with highly advanced technology, I have a hard time with that.
George Knapp
Let’s talk triangles for a moment. As you’re probably aware, there’s a lot of buzz about triangles, one particular triangle that is rumored to exist in a photo coming in and out of the water, photographed or documented by the US Navy. We don’t know if that photo exists. But triangle forms have been reported for a long time. You wrote a book about it seven years ago, I think. Give me your thumbnail on triangles. I guess the difficulty would be ours or theirs, because we have some, right?
David Marler
Absolutely. We believe we do. Again, nothing conclusive by any means. But I’ll answer the last question first. I want to be very clear, I think that when people are seeing triangular objects in the sky, it is a mixed bag. To your point, you know, it’s very simple just to arbitrarily lump one explanation onto something. But life isn’t that simple, right? It’s shades of gray. And so I think some of the triangles people are seeing are in fact advanced aircraft, by various elements, defense contractors, Department of Defense. However, in 2012, when I was collecting a lot of this information I had been since a famous case I investigated back in 2000, in Southern Illinois where a triangle was seen. I was collecting a lot of historical reports, and I would see comments being posted on the internet that well, these triangles are new, ergo, they must be military. And I’m looking at accounts from 1950 1952 original newspapers, government documents that completely speak against that were these things were being reported worldwide, going back at least to the 1950s and I’ve even found some accounts from Scientific American and Nature Magazine journal where they’re reporting triangular objects in the late 1800s that were being seen in the sky that could possibly be the same type of objects. But I found it interesting that even in the Bluebook files they had triangular UFO reports and some of those George, I always like to underscore this involved radar confirmation. It wasn’t just simple eyewitness testimony we’re relying on but there was radar confirmation in conjunction with not only ground based but airborne witnesses airborne radar ground based radar and many of these cases so I just felt that, I never wanted to write a book, never thought I would write a book, but I really felt compelled to set the record straight to dismiss this myth that this these are all new therefore they must be military but again back to my earlier argument you and I, unless we’re involved in these classified programs we can’t sit here and categorically state that these cannot necessarily be military in origin. And so I leave myself open to the possibility that some of the more modern accounts are. But again, going back to 1950, Operation Mainbrace, the largest NATO Naval exercise since the conclusion of World War II, they had a sighting of a triangular UFO that flew over the Danish destroyer Willemoes, and so that’s just one example of many military accounts of these triangles and in ’57 the Danish defense intelligence service had a wave of what they called and this kind of echoes almost the headlines from Farmington, triangular spaceships is the term that they were using at the time. And I even found a Reuters news service article from April 1958 in the course of my historical research over the village of (inaudible) in Denmark, a woman was interviewed who claimed she saw a dark silent low altitude triangle hovering over the village. Now we might not put much stock in that since it’s a single eyewitness report, but the Reuters news service article goes on to state Reuters was able to confirm 20 other villagers attested to what the woman saw and in addition to seeing the stark silent triangle they saw a number of horseshoe shaped objects flying out of the triangle each emitting a bright light, which was very interesting.
George Knapp
I’m gonna have to check out your book again to read up on that. Did you check out NIDS analysis of triangle cases?
David Marler
Absolutely, of course, in fact NIDS (National Institute for Discovery Science) investigated the case that i investigated for MUFON at the time, the southern Illinois UFO that was cited by multiple police officers in and around Millstadt and Lebanon Illinois. And yeah I found that their research was very compelling especially the correlation between triangles being cited in your military bases. the only thing that I’m always hesitant on is ,obviously George, going back to research 101, correlation does not necessarily mean causation just because they’re being seen in military bases doesn’t mean they’re originating from there and in fact one thing I like to point out with the January 5 case this object flew within an estimated one to two miles of Scott Air Force Base. Of all the witnesses at the time and then in subsequent years that I’ve tracked down no one has attested to seeing this object taking off from Scott Air Force Base or landing and so I think that’s an important point and much like the UFO nuke connection yeah just because these UFOs are being seen in nuclear installations doesn’t mean that they’re originating from there so I think that there’s a whatever these things are whoever is operating these things they’re definitely showing an interest in military and technological development.
George Knapp
One last question for this time that is. Give me your general take on current events and the interest in Congress, the UAP Task Force being given the assignment of collecting all this data from reluctant agencies or agencies reluctant to cough it up. Where do you think that leads? Are you encouraged by these developments and do we end up in a happy place once this period ends? Because you know you’ve seen it before where the public interest waxes and wanes the pendulum swings.
David Marler
Well, regardless of where it goes I think that the success of revelation starting with the New York Times article back in December 2017 and many revelations since then on the part of the US Navy I think it’s a game changing moment in UFOs and UFO research or I should say UAP? I’m still old school George, I go with UFO. But it’s a game changing moment simply because you know quite often people especially in the UFO community talk about disclosure with a capital D, I’ve never been one to espouse that or promote that but you know in the interest of being completely honest with you and your audience I think we’re seeing disclosure with a lowercase d in the sense that they are acknowledging there is a phenomenon. And that is a huge 180 from decades long denials going back to ’47. And so, I take that and run with it, just the simple fact that we at least can have a conversation now, where they’re not denying the phenomenon. Now, as I like to say, though, this gets us to the core question which we should have been asking all along. And by we, I mean, the government, the military, not just in the United States, but elsewhere. Let’s get past the stupid academic question, are UFOs real? Yes, UFOs are real. People see things they can’t readily identify. And there’s ample evidence to suggest there is some objective reality to whatever this UFO subject is. But we’re now past that. So because of their acknowledgement, in acknowledging there is a phenomenon, we can now work together, hopefully collectively, in answering the question, what are UFOs? And so I think it’s a game changing moment in that regard. Now, conversely, I know, there’s a lot of hope, a lot of anticipation with regard to the UAP Task Force and the report that’s pending. I don’t feel very confident that we within the civilian sector are going to see much with regard to that. And I say that, based on government insiders that I’ve talked to people I know that I’ve worked within the intelligence world, and they have told me, temper your enthusiasm. If you look at what the Senate Intelligence Committee is requesting, George, there’s a lot of detail that they want. And I think Marco Rubio just recently announced that it probably won’t meet the deadline, which is ironic, because a month ago, I was saying that, if you look at their request, I find it hard that these staffers are going to be able to collect that information go through the declassification process to get it into a working declassified document, which was the last comment, if you recall, they requested a declassified report. I don’t see how they can have a readable, declassified report when you see what they’re asking for. So chances are, I think, and I’m speculating, it’s going to be a classified report, and that we really won’t see much in the civilian sector with regard to it.
George Knapp
Well, I think we’re on the same page on all that that you just said, I find it to be an extraordinary time, just the fact that that report is going to be written at all is a significant move forward.
David Marler
And George, might I add something to this. I’ve been doing a lot of local radio shows here in New Mexico live radio. And we’ve had callers calling in. And I just want to share a story because this is literally going to be happening here real soon. I had a gentleman call in onto the show. He is a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the Air Force. And he heard me talking about the UFO subject. He’s heard the local media coverage over the last two to three years. And he is going to be coming to my home this Saturday to talk about UFOs. And he has a friend who was in charge of advanced weapon development for the Air Force who has also retired. He is going to be talking to me and he has stories he wants to talk about regarding UFOs from his period at the Air Force. And I was contacted about two months ago, a month and a half ago by another retired lieutenant colonel in the Air Force from Nebraska. So the point I’m making is, regardless of where this goes, it has suddenly changed the tenor of the conversation. And we have people like these Lieutenant Colonel’s that are reaching out that want to talk now because that that stigma has been stripped away from the subject. And I’m sure George with your contacts, you’ve seen the same thing. So it’s a sea change moment right now that we’re seeing in UFOlogy.
George Knapp
I never thought I would see it. Never did.
David Marler
No, no, I can’t believe that. And I really think back because I am a historian in the subject. I look back to Don Kehoe. I look back to the Lorenzens during APRO, I look back to Dr. James McDonald and even J. Allen Hynek. I wish they could be here now to see this, this change with the phenomenon with the subject.
George Knapp
David, thanks so much for your time. We’ll do this again.